Episode Transcript — Award-winning Ad Strategy w/ Jeremy Gurewitz of Man Crates
00:01 Announcer: You're listening to The Spend $10K a Day podcast. Brought to you by the performance marketing experts at MuteSix. This is your source for cutting edge insight into the world of online advertising. From the team with more Facebook case studies than any other agency on the planet. Here are your hosts, Steve Weiss and Stewart Anderson.
Steve Weiss: Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing day at The Spend $10K a Day Podcast. Happy Valentine's day to all the listeners. Hopefully that you're enjoying your Valentine's day and you're selling lots of Valentine's day products. Not Valentine’s day products, but incorporating lots of transactions because of Valentine's day. Anyway, we have an amazing guest today. We have Jeremy Gurewitz from Man Crates. Welcome aboard Jeremy.
Jeremy Gurewitz: Thanks Steve. Happy to be here.
SW: Happy Valentine's day buddy.
JG: Yeah. Happy that it's finally arrived. I can breathe a little bit now.
SW: Yeah man. It's really interesting how I found out about Man Crates. First off, I love the product. I literally spent probably $3,500 to four grand over the holiday season. Hanukkah and Christmas. On Man Crates someone got me a Man Crate. I think it was the spaghetti board, the spaghetti crate.
JG: Okay, yeah. The pasta crate maybe.
SW: A pasta crate and I'm like, "This is the most amazing assembly of crate that I've ever seen. It was perfect. And then I got the jerky crate, and I'm like, "Wow, this is one of the coolest products." I had to reach out to you man, and see if you want to jump on our podcast. You guys have both an amazing product, a really cool story. I'm sure a lot of really interesting insights when it comes both to product market fit, customer acquisition, and e-commerce optimization. Without further ado, tell us a little more about the story of Man Crates. How did Man Crates start. Tell us a little bit about the product for all listeners who don't know what Man Crates is, and then tell us a little more about your background.
JG: Yeah. Sure. Man Crates started with an idea, just like everything else. Our CEO and founder, John, had this idea in his head, was kicking it around for a while. Told his wife about it, and she was like, "Great, but you got to make some sacrifices." So, he sold his motorcycle and decided to go about making the first prototype, got a website up and just tried to make it a reality. The idea behind Man Crates is pretty straight forward. Guys often get gifts that suck. You get another tie or a pair of socks, or even some random gadget that you'll use once and never look at again. That's no fun. People in your life for guys who want to get them gifts, and we view it as our mission to have awesome gifts. You get a gift from someone in your life, you look at it and you're like, "Wow, this is an awesome gift. This person really knows me. I love it." That's sort of the idea behind Man Crates. We haven't been around that long, since 2012, and it's really just been an exciting journey. I started at Man Crates about a year and half ago. I have an interesting background. I actually used to work in quantitative finance, believe it or not.
SW: Wow. Big data.
JG: What's that?
SW: Very, very big data. Very complicated data. Just data.
JG: Exactly. I was on a team of PhDs and even though I don't have a PhD, I have a lot of experience in quantitative. A little bit of coding, and so I was used to looking at pretty fine tune data. When I was looking for an opportunity out in California, John, I interviewed here, and they said, "Hey, come along and we'll see if you can put that brand of yours to good use. Did some data analytics for them, was looking at this stuff. It was actually crazy. Man Crates really exploded. I'd used some small agency stuff, but nothing really too in depth, I'd say. I was looking at this, I'm like, "Hey, I think there's some data here that we can tease out. I don't think we're fully optimizing." Part of the awesome Man Crates' culture is they said, "Hey, go for it." Here I am today.
SW: A couple of questions. You brought some really interesting points. Number one, you were there at Man Crates super early on. A lot of e-commerce owners are just getting going, and really try to understand the data. What is meaningful when it comes to that word data. How did Man Crates go about acquiring their first thousand users. What was that like, and then the second part of that question is, what is the most meaningful part of the data to look at? You talk a lot about quantitative data. What elements of data? There's some much data coming out of Facebook, or coming out of Shopper 5. What was the data that you were really looking at and focusing on?
JG: Yeah. You've asked two huge questions, including how to explain data overall. I'll try and do my best to explain both of them. I wasn't around in the very, very beginning days, when John was literally in his garage, classic Silicon Valley sort of thing. I've spoken to a great length about it. It's a bit of a cliché. The reason why it's a cliché is because it's true. It's testing, testing, testing. John, threw up a bunch of prototypes ... In the beginning, he didn't even have all the products that he had on the website. He had people order, and then he would literally call them and be like, "Hey, I'm so sorry, we're out of stock."
JG: "I'll give you coupon for next time. What are you interested in? Why do you like this product?" He believes it strongly, and again cliché but true, you have to know your customers extremely well. He threw a bunch of different iterations, try to MVP literally. Just Hack together a crate using a saw and some glue, threw some product in there that he thought made sense. That customers would actually enjoy. Before long, it turned out that people really wanted this thing. It's not just a thing. It's something that people really wanted to get for guys in their life because there really was just nothing like it. That's something I think that's worked. Hopefully, your listeners can appreciate. Also, is that copy cat products, they're fine, but having something that's a little bit different can really go a long way.
SW: What was unique?
JG: I speak for myself when I look on my Facebook feed or if I'm searching for something on Google. Something that stands out, even a little bit, I think can really go a long way.
SW: Number one, very important is to user testing. You're launching something brand new. You don't need to have the product in house. You can literally get the product later. it's just understanding a segment of customers that are most likely to purchase your product, and understanding what expectations they have, so you can really build the product to fit their expectations. Interesting. Number two to that question. Data, that word is ... Everyone if you're in the online marketing world. Everyone's like, "I got to look at the data. I got to get the data." It's just an anomaly word that a lot of people just are scared of really explaining, describing, and really understanding. I talk about it a lot, that the word data is ambiguous. It could mean 25 different things. If you're giving advice to your buddy earlier on in this company he's going to raise capital, and he really wants to understand the data and create a picture of his company to investors. What data are you focusing on to really paint a picture of a fast growth company?
JG: Yeah. Sure. There's a lot of different ways to attack this. The first way is you can get really, really, complicated. Now that we are at a stage where we have some of the resources and time, we can do that. But, for a lot of e-commerce I think it can be really simple. How many people are visiting your site? And how many people are buying? In a certain way, the way I think about it is you have sessions. Hopefully, people here have the ability to figure out how many people are visiting their site. People can't buy anything unless they're on your site. There's lots of different ways to acquire customers. Google and Facebook being the two primary ones, but we could talk about that a little bit later. Simply put, how many people are on your site? If you have the ability, and I'm not super familiar with Shopper 5, but hopefully you have the ability to see where people are clicking. How many people are buying, because e-commerce conversion rates are low. Even for the industry standard depending on who you talk to, can range anywhere from 2% on the lower end, to maybe 4% or 5% if you have something really spectacular, you're selling at Christmas or something. But, if you think about that, for people starting out, especially if you're not quite sure about product market fit, you need a hundred people to visit your site for only one person to buy. To me, I think people don't necessarily appreciate that when they're first starting out.
SW: Everyone is always ... The question is, is it the Facebook ad or is it the conversion rate on the site? At MuteSix we work with some very large spenders. We manage a little over 100 million dollars a year in spend. We're very sensitive to the conversion rates on the site. We're very sensitive to understanding the users expectations when they click an ad. What are they expecting? What are they thinking? What's the next action in the mind? The psychology element to marketing which I feel some people always gaze over because everything is data, data, data. Tell me a little more of the way you guys think about conversion rates. You mentioned e-commerce conversion rates. What have been some of the bigger wins on site that you guys have really leveraged to really continuously increase that conversion rate. Really giving that Man Crate experience.
JG: Yeah. I think it's really important to think about as you're pointing out, the psychology of the customer, and what is the journey you're leading them on? You have an ad for one of your products ... I should back up a little bit. We test everything. I would emphasize again that what we found is different tests, maybe a different time of the year. Maybe it's a different product. Maybe it's even a different segment. Can result in different results, so you have to be rigorous with your testing. It's a pain. People don't want necessarily to, "Oh, I have to write this down. I have to track when this happened." If you're not rigorous in your testing, you're not going to be able to see sort of rigorous results. We try and be extremely rigorous in our testing. What we found ... I'll give you a few broad insights. Depending on the segment and depending on the product, the journey that you lead them on the website can lead vastly different results. For example, we just had Valentine's day going. If you have one of your ads that leads to just the general homepage. That is one way to do it. Or if you have them specifically customized landing page, or a specially customized Valentine’s day page, or if you have a product and you have just a few products associated with that. You're giving them less choice. That could even be better. These are some of the things that are worth thinking about when you're talking about a larger spend, or trying to really narrow in on what's the way to optimize these sorts of things.
SW: So, really making sure that the customer you're driving is from a e-commerce conversion rate perspective. Is really hitting a certain price mark. Maybe doing split tests around price, audience, specific landing pages. Do you guys use a lot of advertorials in content, and different types of videos? Can you tell me a little more about your content strategy of getting people in the funnel, new customer specifically? Talking a little to that Man Crate experience. Selling that experience if I may ask?
JG: Yeah. Sure. On our site, to everyone listening you go to mancrates.com. I can't help but give a little plug there. The reason why I think it's useful, is if you go everywhere on the site, you see that uniform message. So, what is the Man Crates' message? Lighthearted right? On all of our products we have a in house creative team that does an amazing job. It actually just won the Digiday best ad of the year award, which was pretty exciting for-
SW: And what ad was that?
JG: This was a longer feature ad. It ventures in customer service. It was a three minute video on our Facebook page that you can take a look at. It's really great. It shows the Man Crates message. Basically, it tells the story about how one of our customers got a hot and spicy crate. They opened it up and unfortunately FedEx doesn't treat all packages with the love and care they deserve. One of the hot sauce bottles had exploded, and it dripped all over this woman's beautiful carpet. She was upset about it. She called her customer service. One of the key tenets of Man Crates is excellent customer service. We call it the high-five guarantees. We promise to make it right no matter what. That's just one of the core tenets of Man Crates. They called us up and the woman was very upset, and rightly so. I mean, you don't want to have to open ... You think it's going to be a great gifting experience, and you have hot sauce exploded all over your carpet. James, our head of customer service, and a generally awesome dude, called up a carpet cleaning service, and he got them to come over within an hour. He cleaned her carpet, and she was happy. He did it free of charge. All he wanted was a free cred out of it. I think that exemplifies the Man Crates motto which is, great experience we'll make it right no matter what.
SW: That creative is real. And that's very emotional. I feel like it's very touching in a lot of ways because people have those types ... If they buy something and they don't have a great experience, they want to find a company that's going to go over and above the call of duty. I think capturing that in piece of content, that's amazing. To all the listeners out there, if you can really capture your ... Number one, what does your brand stand for? I think Man Crates does this amazing job of showing what the brand stands for. Number two, creating content around experiences of the product. I always talk about that of ... It's not always about product shots and lifestyle shots. It's about cultivating that experience. This is a real experience that people had from buying Man Crates. I think that's why that specific ad unit is successful. I'm sure you're running that on all your Facebook ads. I'm sure you're bringing people in the funnel with a piece of content around that. I can't say how important that is because we at Creek, we're content creators. Along with our performance marketers, we also have a full creative team. Creative is very important to us. Experience is very important to us. I think that's an amazing story man. I can't say how amazing that is.
JG: Yeah. You should definitely check it out. It's on our Facebook page, Facebook.com/mancrates. Look at our videos there. I guess what I would say to your listeners, also, not everyone is lucky enough to have an in house creative team that can afford to do a big budget production. But, there's smaller ways that you can exemplify it. Even guaranteeing great customer service. I think it's definitely harder when you're scaling, but when you're just starting out, I can't recommend enough to really contact your customers. If there are any issues whatsoever, I think it's easy starting out to try and say, "I'm trying to save a few bucks here. Maybe this customer is being unreasonable." Going above and beyond customer service, we found pays dividends.
SW: Interesting. Very interesting. Reaching out to your customers once they order personally. First 100 customers you're going to start reaching out to them. Start saying, "Hello, hey my name is Steve. My name's James." Tell me about this product. Maybe have me a list of questions that you could ask specific customers if you're in a very early stage of your business, right?
JG: Yeah. All of that is big. Certainly if a customer reaches out to you making sure that you're on top of that. I think that's something, and it's hard. We sell enough now that we definitely ... Even a small percentage of problems can be large over time. But, we make the extra effort to make sure that we respond to everything as quickly as possible, and making sure that we do whatever we can to make it right.
SW: Awesome. I want to move the conversation to a different place. Two areas that I'm really fascinated with, number one, tell me this, how important is packaging in getting repeat customers? You guys have such a unique packaging with the crate. I get the crate and it's just an experience of unboxing that big wooden crate that comes in. It's like, wow, this crate just arrives at your door. How important is that to really be thoughtful in the way your product is packaged, and that experience of getting the product at the door? I think there's not many e-commerce brands that do a great job on the packaging side. I want to give MeUndies a shout-out, besides us working with them for a long time. They have amazing packaging as well. But, you guys have incredible packaging, so I'm wondering just if you can talk a little more to our listeners about how important packaging is, and how do you think and iterate packaging because that's so important?
JG: Yeah. In terms of iterating on packaging, I would think of that similar to iterating on product, which is sort of what is your impression? Again, we ask our customers for feedback all the time, so when I talk about reaching out to customers, getting their feedback, it's so important. How else do you know? You can look at what's selling, and we look at that to an extent. But, we found that things can sell, but maybe customers are neutral towards it. They think, "All right, it was fine. Nothing spectacular." The goal here is to delight. You're selling a product that delights. That's how you build your customer base. When we think about repeat customers, one of the things here that ... And I think you mentioned me on these. It can be used as cliché, but it's a great example. Apple, you see the packaging you just know immediately. Your brains emotional response starts going. Having distinctive packaging, I can't recommend strongly enough. I think that earlier on, we had tested less distinctive packaging. Even just the cardboard box that the crate comes in. We have a crate branded cardboard box. This little things, people see that. And we've gotten feedback from customers saying, "Oh man, seeing the box, I'm excited now." That's really important and I know it's funny. Being a performance marketer, it's very easy to just focus on the numbers, but it's important to remember that numbers are representing real people and real products. And so we try and really strongly to emphasize every component of the process against modeling ourselves out of best practices. Brands if you think of Nike or Apple, etc.
SW: It's interesting. You said something in there about data. Again, the so what of data. Everyone's good at compiling data, but this data is people. What we're worried about as performance marketers is we're worried about the data on the back end. We're paying so much money for these users to come into our funnel. We're paying Facebook and Google. If you have a great product, that's going to lead to better retention. It's just the reality of the game. I think if more and more companies put the time into really understanding their customer base, what is their expectation? What is going to make this experience unique other than any other gift box. There's so many gift boxing companies for men and for women. What I love about you guys is you guys are different. You guys build an experience around your brand. That was one of the reasons why I was really excited to get you guys on the podcast because I really talk a lot about experiences, and building customized experiences for consumers.
JG: Yeah. I totally agree with that. Again, that's something that we ask ourselves that same question. Look, there's always going to be people who are trying to compete with a similar product, or even just try and rip you off. But, if you're are thinking thoughtfully about it, I think that's the way that you achieve success here.
SW: Cool, I'm going to move the conversation to another place. This is a question that a lot of more mature brands are thinking about. Something I think about on a daily basis as a performance marketer. Personally, if I managed hundreds of millions of dollars and spend on Facebook, as well as search over my 12, 13, year career as a performance marketer. I'm always thinking about this. Man Crates is for all intense purposes, is a gift?
SW: You'd agree that most people buy Man Crates as gift for someone else? You don't have many people that just buy Man Crates for their everyday use. It's for a gift, for a man, or for someone in their life that they really care about. How does Man Crates ... How does their marketing change, and how do they survive on non-gifting seasons? April 3rd, March 26th. There's no reason to give a gift on March 26th. There's no reason to give a gift in April 3rd. There's no reason to give a gift on June 15th. How do gifting companies, companies that survive mainly on building gifts and experiences for consumers. How do they survive during non-gifting seasons? Everyone has their own secret source. That's kind of what interests me from a brand perspective is what do you guys do when there's non-gifting type holidays?
JG: Yes. Sure. I would answer that question in two ways. First of all, and this is any consumer product company. You have seasonal peaks. Companies I think that try and fight against that, if you want to allocate tons of dollars in dead periods, I think you do that on your own peril. You want to invest your money at a period of time where customer sentiment is ready for it. We appreciate that element of it. But, with that said, we're always working to iterate ... I guess I would push back a little bit on your point that there's no reason to give a gift on off season. People have events in their lives. It can be something as simple as a birthday, or maybe, "Hey, I want to give a gift to someone that I care about." So, that's one element of it. Second element I'll push back on just a little bit, is we're always thinking about ways to portray it in a different light. Yes, Man Crates, awesome gifts for men. We're starting to see some people building for different uses that we wouldn't have expected. People often just want something cool for themselves. Even something cool, it's called Man Crates, but we're seeing people buying them for women. To answer your question about marketing. Again, we test everything and we promote products around seasonal holidays. For example, Mardi Gras, not to long ago on Tuesday, a little bit in the Valentine's day season. We had some content around that. We have some products that are related to that. When you think about other seasonal events, we just had the Super Bowl, so we had some NFL products. We think about these smaller events, and we do see uptakes because people care about what's relevant in their lives. So, they think about these smaller things, and maybe it's not quite as relevant to everyone as Christmas where Christmas matters to everyone. Focusing on these small things, we found is worth the time than just having content or advertising, or copy that's related to that. As long as it ties in with the product we found can be successful.
SW: Cool. Just a high-level of thoughts that you've just communicated. Number one, being very current with the time. If it's Mardi Gras, let's come up with some content for Mardi Gras in our ads. Let's really make all our ads as current as possible. We don't want to just be a seasonal product. Obviously, people are going to buy it for their birthdays. It's not just a gifting product. It brings joy to people, so obviously it's not just gifting. Number two, which I think is really interesting. A really good nugget I pulled is Consumer insights. You guys seem like you do an amazing job of consumer insights on your brand of really understanding how people are using the product, and really building upon that. You said that there's some really creative uses of Man Crates. I think for every product company out there, CBG brand is really important to understand how people are using your product. They might not be using it in the most traditional way. Maybe there's a lot of unique angles that you could then apply to your marketing from the way people use your product. I'm sure you guys have found a little more about that. Can you talk a little more about your consumer insights, and how you guys think about really understanding the consumer, the uses, and how you apply that to your marketing.
JG: Sure. I guess what I would say is that we're blessed with awesome customers. Not to pitch our Facebook page too much, but people have re-purposed in their crates. You can go and look at, people often use them as chest to hold things, or maybe, I've seen it as a bird house. I've seen it turned into a clock.
SW: That's cool.
JG: Really cool stuff. Again, I'm repeating myself here, but it's important. Constant contact with your customers. When people buy something from you get their emails. People want to be heard, so we're trying to maintain a constant conversation with our customers. We encourage them to send us information, complaints, compliments, thoughts. We have our customer service team which is rigorously tracking every contact we have with our customer. Understanding our customers comes from speaking to your customers. There's no analytic shortcut around it. This is coming from I promise you a data guide. We have tons of data on our customers. Inherently speaking, purchase data, Google analytics data, Facebook analytics data, insights, etc. It's no substitute for talking to your customers.
SW: Cool. I'm going to change up a little as well now. We haven't really talked into anything strategic on the Facebook side. This is the fun part of conversation where we talk a little nitty gritty, talks of Facebook life. How do you guys think about structuring your campaigns, obviously there's the beautiful prospecting campaigns, or awareness, experience. It's driving that experience into new customers. What types of creative do you guys think about using in your prospecting campaigns? What type of objectives are you guys using? Are you guys straight converging objective? Are you guys using other types of objectives like video views, viewed content, the carts. Number two, is how are you setting up your remarketing audiences? Are you guys doing one day out, 15 day outs, are you guys having different messages in a kind of a sequential marketing format. Talk a little more about both sides of the funnel. How you guys think of both.
JG: Yeah. Sure. I guess ... Sorry, let me back up a little bit. You asked, how do you run Facebook advertising?
SW: Sorry about that. Got a little excited there.
JG: Let me see what I can share without giving away too much of the secret sauce.
SW: Don't give away the sauce man. Feel free, if I ask too many questions.
JG: Again, what I would say is we've tested every piece of creative that Facebook offers. Static images, to carousels, to videos, to video carousels, to canvas ads, to collections. We've had some good success with collections, for e-commerce in particular, that's something worth noting. Having the ability to click on some products and get to see a closer look, it was definitely we found in our testing is worth it. I would again emphasize though, again rigorously testing. If you have an ad set, it's worth testing potentially similar creative in multiple formats, and seeing what works out best for your audience. Particularly in the prospecting area where depending on the audience we're talking, it could be wildly different. We optimized two conversions. We're lucky enough that we have enough of a budget volume that you can do that. For an e-commerce company, I'm not really sure what else. Unless you really have a brand awareness goal, which I would imagine maybe some of your larger clients maybe have. That's sort of the general first answer. What was your second question again or-
SW: On the retention side, a lot of the work that we do, we've had tons of success with is really doing what we call sequential marketing. You're going to get this message, and you're going to get this message, and really kind of building Facebook into a funnel. Having a different message one day out, five days out, 10 days out, 14 days out, from when they initially engage with your ad. Tell us a little more of whatever you feel confident about obviously. How do you guys think about retention? How do you bucket your different remarketing buckets, and audience buckets, etc?
JG: Yeah. We have tried to think of retention across channels. What I would say is that we have a retention audience in Facebook. We have gotten mixed response. I would say too much contact too close to the purchase, and it's very plausible that it varies for different people. That's just our experience. We focus a little bit more on email marketing. We found some really excellent success there. Trying not to be too hostage to Facebook, right?
JG: That's trying to bring as much as we can in house. I would say being thoughtful about it is useful. Sending a message ... I think what you just said is not too far off the mark. Structuring it in such a way that maybe one, two, three messages ... I think it varies depending on your product. For us, we have a target, repeat purchase time that often isn't quite as maybe as soon, it might be for other products. The other thing I would say is we separate ... We have retention plans, then we have immediate marketing afterwards to a certain segment of our customers that we found are more receptive to it. For example, let's just say if we know that a customer has purchased from us before, this isn't there first purchase, this is their second, or whatever purchase, then we found they're much more receptive to continuous marketing. That's something that's worth sharing.
SW: Interesting. Say that one more time, so I'm clear.
JG: If you have a customer that has purchased from you more than once. I'm delineating between a customer that's maybe introduced to your brand vs a customer that has already been introduced to your brand, and has purchased maybe a second time. Then there's a different way maybe you would want to market to them.
SW: Got it. Okay. Cool. Interesting. Past purchaser marketing. Definitely different types of deals, different types of content, etc. That makes sense. Very similar to what we do. Last but not least, email marketing. I'm going to wrap things up after this question. It sounds like you guys are really good at email marketing. When I say good, it seems like you guys have a really thoughtful way of serving specific pieces of contents where people are in the buying process. Talk a little more about it if you can. About how you guys think of email. Do you guys think of it just as a form of retention of capturing more revenue, or do you guys use it for a lot of prospecting of really gathering emails on different parts of the website to really re-market to a later stages. What types of email creatives? I know this is mainly a Facebook ad focused podcast, but I love getting in the weaves of email because I know how important it is to the overall success of Facebook campaigns.
JG: Yeah. Again we feel the same, but we view our emails as being in a relationship with our customers. We found that if like any other relationship, if you bother people too much, they're not the biggest fans of that, and so-
SW: Don't bother people. Key number one.
JG: Yeah. You can pass that on there. This is an instance I love sharing, if you're tracking your emails, you'll see that the more emails you send, almost universally from people I've spoken to all said the more revenue you're going to see like, "Oh great. This is wonderful. Just keeping sending emails, more and more emails." What you'll find and this you can see pretty quickly, first of all, you're unsubscribe rate will go up. Second of all, the quality of your emails is going to go down. I don't care how good you are at writing, or if you have the best creative team in the world, you're not going to be able to produce a large number of high quality emails. Finally, not every email has to be promotional. Sometimes we'll just send emails like, "Hey, wishing you a happy Valentine's day. Here are some cool crates that people have re-purposed into awesome stuff. Take a look." Or, "Hey, here, take a look at our blog. These are some of the articles of the week." This is sort of the thing that gets people to read your emails, as opposed to saying, "It's just Man Crates telling me to buy some stuff again." I think that's an insight that's worth thinking about for all of your listeners there.
SW: That's great man. That's really on point man. I love talking about email, and how it can have a positive effect, or a negative effect, I always tell a lot of brands we work with, they also outsource a lot of their email marketing to us. We have a whole email team. Part of the advice I give to a lot of the brands that we work with is to be very sensitive with email. Don't overdo it. Don't try and hit a short-term revenue goal, which is going to hurt long-term because you're right, your unsubscriber rate is going to go up if you really pound with email and really try and hit short-term revenue goals. Great stuff. Jeremy I really appreciate you taking the time out of your Valentine's day to jump on this Spend $10K a Day Podcast. If any of our listeners want to get a hold of you, or if they have any questions about anything related. Do you want them to email me, or I can I forward off to you, because sometimes we might have some listeners that are just having brilliant questions?
JG: Yeah. Totally okay if people have good questions can email me at email@example.com. Go to mancrates.com, I think that's probably the easiest thing to do is to really check out what we're doing. I think there's a lot insights if you look at the way we structure our site, the way we have our PLPs and PDPs. I think you can learn a lot from that. It's been great speaking with you. I really appreciate having me on.
SW: Cool man. That's it. Thanks again for coming on the podcast bro. It's the wrap. Thanks for listening to this Spend 10K a Day Podcast. We have some more amazing stuff coming up on the next episode. We're going to be talking a little more about a Valentine's day recap from a Facebook ad perspective.