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Building a Unique Product Experience w/ Rob Schutz of Ro

On today's episode, Steve Weiss interviews Rob Schutz, Co-founder of Ro. Ro is a mission-driven healthcare technology company where doctors, pharmacists and engineers are working together to reinvent the way in which the healthcare system works. Ro is special because they were able to overtake the market share of an outdated industry with the combination of quality products and a unique consumer experience.

Episode Transcript — Building a Unique Product Experience w/ Rob Schutz of Ro

Narrator: You're listening to the Spend $10k a Day podcast, brought to you by the performance marketing experts at MuteSix. This is your source for cutting edge insight into the world of online advertising from the team with more Facebook case studies than any other agency on the planet. Here is your host, Steve Weiss.

Steve Weiss: Hello everyone, welcome back to the Spend $10k a Day podcast. We have another awesome episode today. Today, we have a great guest. Rob is on a mission to help as many guys and women as possible with a couple particular problems, but he's one of the fastest growing companies in the space. Rob Schutz, CRO of Ro. Hey man, thanks for coming on.

Rob Schutz: Hey, thank you for having me.

Steve Weiss: Did I do a good job there, I did good?

Rob Schutz: Yeah, that was a ... You're a professional. You've done this before. Proud of you.

Steve Weiss: Thanks man. So we actually met, I'd say about six months ... I want to say six, seven months ago.

Rob Schutz: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Steve Weiss: And Rob has a crazy acquisition background. He's been in a lot of organizations and he seen a lot of different e-commerce brands grow. And now he's building one of the ... Obviously, he's been all over the news. You have such a cool unique product experience. And I guess my excitement of having you on the podcast was that you're not building one product, you're not building a line of products. You're building a business to solve problems. I think that just ... and a lot of different products to solve a couple particular problems. And that's what's curious to me because as a marketer, I'm always trying to focus on pain point solution and I think you guys have built a whole customer experience, which is unique and that's kind of ... I think that's kind of the future of e-commerce marketing, is building a unique product experience around a solution that you're solving.

Rob Schutz: Yeah, totally.

Steve Weiss: So Rob, tell us a little more about yourself, your background and then a little bit more about Ro and for those people that aren't actually know what Ro is, which I think is ... I think most people know what Ro is now or they've seen your Facebook ads or seen you in the news. I know I get your Facebook ads a lot and I question myself, is this a problem that I have or should have?

Rob Schutz: We're going to wear you down.

Steve Weiss: Cool, man.

Rob Schutz: Yeah, absolutely. We'll, maybe it's a ... maybe it makes sense to give a little overview on Ro first, just to give a little context and then happy to jump into background.

Steve Weiss: Yup.

Rob Schutz: So yes, so Ro, we are a mission-driven health care company, a health care technology company. We have a couple different verticals. A lot of folks know us for our first vertical, the men's health vertical, Roman. We launched with a single product around erectile dysfunction back in October of last year. So we're coming up on our one year anniversary. We recently rolled out several new products under men's health for Roman. Everything from cold sores, herpes, BPH, hair loss, premature ejaculation, a lot of different areas.

Steve Weiss: The best areas.

Rob Schutz: Areas that guys need help with and aren't always great at talking to physicians about in person. We also have our second vertical, which is our addiction vertical called Zero. That first product launched about a month ago and focuses on helping people quit smoking, so it's a quit kit. It's a combination of prescription medication, nicotine replacement gum and also a companion app to help kind of keep people honest and track their progress.

Rob Schutz: And we're in the process of really rolling out, probably over the next year, anywhere between I'd say 12 to 15 new conditions across a wide variety of different demographics. So we've built all the technology ourselves. We're full stack, which is very unique in this space. So we have spent the last 18 months of work building out the patient application. There's custom physician, EMR, pharmacy fulfillment application and then we own and operate our own national physician network and national pharmacy network to kind of keep that all altogether.

Steve Weiss: So you guys are the definition of vertically integrated. You guys have the physicians, you guys obviously have the whole process down pat of like that you need to see a doctor obviously, to order your products. They're all prescription-based. So from start to finish, literally going through the application process, having a doctor, you guys own that whole process, correct?

Rob Schutz: Exactly, exactly. And it's pretty critical to own the whole process. You could try and tape together other people's software, but if you want to create a truly unique experience that from a consumer standpoint, people'll expect this point. People will expect their order from Amazon, it's fast shipping and it's delivered to their door. There's customer service that's available. It's really, really hard to do that unless you're able to really own each step of the process.

Rob Schutz: So we've spent the last, as I said, 18 months building that out and really getting reps on the system, moving tens of thousands of folks through the platform to kind of find the improvements that we need, work with our dev team and product team to make those updates and narrow the point where we can really, really flex into all these different conditions. And even six months ago, any physician on our platform could prescribe medication to any pharmacy in the country if appropriate. And so we've just been waiting for the timing and to get those reps to really build a unique special experience around health care.

Steve Weiss: That's awesome. So both product as well ... Your business is definitely, there's the product, but I think that where you guys win out and this is kind of the whole genesis of where I think consumer marketing is going, you win out with the experience. The experience is more than a product. And I think that's where a lot of brands are missing is, it's not ... the products don't sell themselves, the experience and the solution in the experience is what sells. And I think that's kind of like ... I think the next level. One thing that I'm curious about and I'd love to have your take on is, I'm a big believer in psychology, the psychology of digital marketing more so than just, here's numbers, is putting up ads.

Steve Weiss: You guys have a product that you have to have a certain set of trust. Obviously, the consumers who buy any of your products from Roman on down, this is not a problem that they're writing a [Yacht Po 00:00:06:34] review on to say, "Hey, I tried out the premature ejaculation lotion and I was a really big fan of it. It's really good." This is something that a lot of guys and a lot of women are obviously ... they're holding very close to vest. This information is very personal and it's very deep. And I guess once you have that trust with them, you win out.

Steve Weiss: They'll open ... they'll do whatever you ask, whether it's going to a pharmacy, whatever it is. And how is an organization, you obviously are marketers similar to me, similar to everyone who listens to this podcast, how do you generate that sense of trust in your marketing to say that, "Listen it's okay. A lot of other people have these problems coming to us. We're a solution. We won't tell anyone. This is confidential." And I think that's really important and really interesting for all the people listening to this podcast is, how do you develop that trust?

Rob Schutz: Yeah, totally. I mean ... Look, I think first and foremost, as you mentioned before around experience and even product, you have to provide a product and experience that people enjoy. And that's true across any business, right? Even if you're the best marketer in the world and you have the best ... using MuteSix to create amazing Facebook ads, it doesn't matter if you're not giving people a good experience and then you're getting bad social proof. First and foremost, you have to deliver on what you're promising. I think when it comes to building trust and that's something we ... Launching first product for erectile dysfunction, we spent a lot of time thinking about how do we build a trust in a space that quite frankly, has been very snake oily over its last 20 years of online pharmacies.

Rob Schutz: And 80% of people who buy Viagra online actually get counterfeit medication right now. So there's a staggering amount of people who just buy from random Canadian, Indian, Chinese pharmacies because they don't want to talk to a doctor in person or look them in the eyes, but they want to get access to this. So for us, we thought a lot about one, the problem holistically, like who do people trust when it comes to this? And we went out and recruited them to be part of our medical advisory board. So if you go to our site, you can see we have people working on these treatment plans and helping come up with the solutions that are the absolute best people across the country and the world and who are the most qualified people to be talking about this.

Rob Schutz: So people like Dr. Steven Lamm, Head of Men's Health at NYU, Dr. Peter Schlegel, Head of Urology at Cornell. We have multiple ex-surgeon generals on our advisory board, ex-head of DEA, ex-head of NIH. On the smoking side, as we were going out and working on the Zero treatment plans, we were bringing in people who are the ex-head of the Tobacco Research Project with University of Minnesota and head of cardiology at University of Minnesota. We're working with these folks to actually create treatment protocols that are the best in the world. So anybody in the middle of a tiny town or a big city can be treated by best possible folks, so that's big.

Rob Schutz: You have to be working with credible people in the space who can kind of help build credibility for you. I think it's also important ... Quite frankly, if you're trying to build trust, there's a couple things you need to do. One, I think, maybe personal opinion, but I think you need to do well in organic search. If you show up in organic search, I think people right or wrong have this mentality of you're a real brand and a real company because Google would suss out all the bad ones. I think it's been interesting for us too is, we have run a lot more aggressively on out of home campaigns, radio, TV, subway. That helps build legitimacy with people.

Rob Schutz: It may not be the best direct response driver, hard to back into a great CPA on the subway campaign sometimes, but it sure does start to change the perception of people over time. So then when they see your Facebook ad next time or they get an email from you, they might be much more apt to open or to click or to engage with you. And then I think honestly, we're really ... I'm really lucky one of my co-founders Saman, is like a world-class kind of brand design guy, but if you're trying to build trust, your site has to look good, your branding has to look good. I think it's in all part of the package that when people give you that two second glance to figure out is this real or not, is this something I should trust? That's part of it and it's important to work into the mix.

Steve Weiss: Interesting, so just super high-level. Number one, if you have a solution to a problem, any problem, get the most knowledgeable experts you could find to back your solution. I think that's the ... find the smartest people to back whatever you're selling and try and get ... reach out to USC or UCLA or any of these research facilities, get doctors ... literally start really thinking about credibility, credibility. Number two, obviously people trust Google. They trust ... they Google stuff, they're knowledgeable.

Steve Weiss: We're marketing to a much more intelligent, intellectual consumer, so obviously organic search is very important. And number three, having an out of home strategy where you're ... less direct response focus, but you're starting to build social proof by saying, listen, we're a real company, we're ... not only a real company, but we're out there. You see us in different places and then not being too DR focused. I think those are, from what I gather, just really, really insightful tips to really build this special bond between you and the consumer.

Rob Schutz: Yeah. I approve that message.

Steve Weiss: Cool, man. Moving on, obviously I think a lot of questions we get is ... We have a lot of people building really awesome companies who listen to this podcast. And one of the questions you get and I get a lot is team building. How do you find talent? When you start ... You guys are building an amazing organization. When you start finding talent and uncovering great people, number one, where do you find great people and number two, during the hiring process specifically, what are you looking for in people? What are you looking for when you start ... I know you're not the guy interviewing all the time, but when you grew the organization out, what is the main thing? What is your secret sauce? That's a better terminology.

Rob Schutz: Yeah, I believe that's the official business term.

Steve Weiss: Secret sauce.

Rob Schutz: Yeah. And I am still very actively involved in hiring as are each of the co-founders. There is no more important job we have as a founding team than to bring in great people right now. And as the company grows, our job is to remove roadblocks and bring in the best possible people and set them up for success at the company. So we do talk to a lot of people. I think we've more recently brought in some folks internally to help us on the recruiting side, but we've spent a lot of time talking with people from just outreach on LinkedIn, really going through lists, getting a recruiter account, doing outreach, chatting with people. A lot of coffees, sometimes five six, seven coffees a day and then get home and pretty wired for my kids.

Rob Schutz: But we're looking for a combination of things. We want to hire people that ... I want to hire someone who is smarter than me, which isn't always too challenging, but we want to bring in really, really smart people who quite frankly, we'd feel comfortable working for in a different environment. I want to be pushed by the people on our teams because they're so knowledgeable in the space and I feel like I need to catch up. The best thing we can do is bring in people and give them room to run and operate and let them really spread their wings and run these areas of the organization.

Rob Schutz: I think, two, we also have a firm no jerks policy, no jerks allowed. I'm going to get a sign or a T-shirt that says that. It's something I learned from one of the guys I used to work with, Henrik Werdelin at BarkBox, he helped instill this policy. We call it the Sunday morning test where it's basically, if you're chatting with someone and you think about, okay, if this person was on the team and I found out that they were in office on Sunday morning and I knew I had to go in the office, knowing that person's there, does it make me more or less likely to want to go in?

Rob Schutz: And we want those types of people, the types of people where you're excited to interact with them and you're excited to work with them and they make you feel like you're part of the team and you're building something bigger than just yourself. So that doesn't mean that everyone's the same personality. There's a lot of room for different types of people in the tent, but we want to work with people who are genuinely good, genuinely kind, genuinely empathetic, but also happen to be super smart and some of the best possible people in their fields.

Steve Weiss: Very similar, I have this saying that I want to build a company that I would be excited to work for. I always think about that. Is this an organization that I'd be ... As a marketer, I was a marketer before I was a person who ran an agency and I wanted to build ... It sounds very similar to you man. So I was like, you really enjoy the work. You enjoy coming to the office every day. Seeing the people that you see every day, they're family. They're not just ... there's a lot of empathy. There's a lot of really ... there's a lot of feeling and I think that's what's really important is, you want to win not only because you want to win, but you want to win because you care about everyone else on the team.

Rob Schutz: Yeah. And we talk about it a lot. We talk about it as a team. This is like a sports team. So everyone is super close, we spend a lot of time together. We also push each other really hard. We want to win. We want to build something really special long-term and yeah, a lot of correlations there to just how sports teams overall operate.

Steve Weiss: Yeah man, I'm right there with you. I played college football even though I only played for a year. I didn't really see the field or anything, it's like theoretically the basis of qualifying as a college football player.

Rob Schutz: I was in the marching band so I was on the field, but in a different capacity.

Steve Weiss: It's funny Rob, we share one thing in common. We probably both saw the exact same amount of field time when we were in college. Getting back to the crux or the meat and potatoes of the conversation, you guys are growing so fast, man. I'm always thinking as an entrepreneur, what do you do to keep being at your best? I think about that a lot. One of my fears is that I won't be at my best on a daily basis. I'm always thinking, how do I keep optimizing my mind and my body to keep being as productive as possible when I'm in the office because a lot of people rely on me?

Steve Weiss: So what are some of the things you do to be your best all the time? What are some of the tricks to de-stress? I ask everyone this question because I'm curious because I always want to get better at this, but what do you do? You have a lot of responsibility, obviously a lot of employees, board, investors, et cetera, et cetera. What do you do to kind of just make sure that you're not overworking yourself, over stressing yourself out? What are your go-tos?

Rob Schutz: Yeah, I think it's a work in progress to be honest because I come home from work and try and run home and see my two kids quickly. And they're both adorable and stress-inducing. No, but they're great. I mean ... I think one thing to do on the business side is ... So I have two co-founders and we have time we have carved out every week at least twice a week to just spend an hour together and talk through what's going on, what's going on with the business. We also try and spend at least one day a month offsite and just spend time thinking long-term about strategy, areas where we're having ... where there's conservation or things we're generally worried about, which has been good to take an opportunity to back away from day-to-day and just focus on some of those long-term things that you have on your to-do list as like a someday or something to worry about later.

Rob Schutz: In terms of what I do personally to try and wind down, occasionally, less than I'd like, but I'll go workout. I'll go for a run in the neighborhood or go to the gym. I've been trying to do early gyms before the morning starts. That's fallen off a little bit recently, but get an opportunity to work up a sweat in the morning and then come to the office. And then honestly I find ... I do find value if I'm able to get 30 minutes or an hour of just signing off, spending time with my wife, decompressing a little bit. We try and put our phones away and have dinner and actually talk to each other, which happens more times than not. And-

Steve Weiss: What you're saying is you talk to each other ... not text each other back and forth while sitting next to each other.

Rob Schutz: Oh no, oh we're texting. Yeah, so that can be good to just unplug a little bit, put things in perspective and we'll talk things through. I'll run her through my day. She'll run me through hers and kind of just talk about things going on or things we can be helpful with as a team.

Steve Weiss: Cool. And one last question. We went from overall marketing to just de-stressing, the product, talk a little product stuff, experience. What is the one thing that you want to improve, whether it's your organization, whether it's ... it could be any part of your organization? And what goes into improving something? Obviously, there's so many solutions out there and I'm talking very high-level, just because I think the mindset when it comes to growing an organization is really important.

Steve Weiss: It's the way you tackle problems and it's the way you get up from different types of failure. And I can tell you right now, I've had, even in my organization, so much stuff to overcome. And I think that's the true way of testing yourself as an entrepreneur is how you overcome problems? How do you come out stronger? So it doesn't have to be really deep, but if there's one thing that you guys want to improve upon, what are you doing to improve that situation, I think is really interesting.

Rob Schutz: Yeah, it's a good question. As I think about things maybe ... Look, there's a lot of examples of things we want to improve. I think every day we're working on something thinking there's probably a way we could streamline this process and make it a bit tighter. I think one challenge we have is, given we've been growing so quickly, we've been adding a lot of folks to the team and it seems like a small thing, but it's really important to us that when a new team member joins, they have a really magical experience. Like their first day, we want them going to bed texting their friends and their parents about what an amazing place they work at.

Rob Schutz: And we think while we've done a good job of kind of setting some table stakes with onboarding, we think a lot about what next steps look like there and how we can make that a really unique fun, amazing experience where they're going to tell their friends and they want to come work here. And we've recently brought on some folks to help focus on talent on the HR side. And I think like everything in life, it's all about prioritizing and there's 500 things we want to get done and it's all about figuring out what the most important things are to the organization. It's a small example of just an area where we feel like the small things we can do when bringing people on will wind up making a very large difference long-term.

Steve Weiss: I'm thinking about literally the exact same. What you just said is-

Rob Schutz: We're like twins here.

Steve Weiss: I know man, it's kind of creepy. You took the words out of my mouth because that's something that is through my mind every single day. It's like how do I keep improving the life of everyone who works ... That's something I lose sleep over. It's like I really ... I want to make sure that everyone feels like what they're doing brings a purpose every day. And I think that's ... It goes back to that onboarding experience I think is really ... We didn't have ... We still don't really have a buttoned up onboarding experience, which I think for an organization our size is not good.

Steve Weiss: And I think as entrepreneurs, you don't think about that. When you're 10, 15, 20 people you're just like, "Oh, we found someone great. Come on board. You're set." Everyone's selling that person like, yeah, come on ... But when you hit over that threshold of 50, 60 people, you're like, how do I keep this experience that you've built together? And I think that's something that we're ... I mean we're trying to figure out as well. I don't think we've found the solution to that problem.

Rob Schutz: It also puts a little bit of how your role changes as an entrepreneur and a founder, right? I'm sure when you started your agency and we would get started here, it was all about, let's get a product that works. Let's make sure we can market to people. Let's make sure that somebody has a question, there's someone answering their email in a reasonable amount of time, right? And it shifts as you grow, your responsibilities shift into now there's more people that are helping you in a lot of these areas and it's actually your responsibility to kind of figure some of this out.

Rob Schutz: Who is responsible for onboarding? Who is responsible for company culture and for how we think about people and how we think about values and North Stars and principles? It changes. I think that for me has been an interesting transition too coming from a pretty hardcore growth background to now spending more time thinking about, how do we build a really inclusive diverse culture? How do we think about product roadmap strategy? Things in general that as you're starting out-

Steve Weiss: High-level.

Rob Schutz: Yeah. And the first ... the very beginning is hand-to-hand combat. You're trying to survive. You want to make sure that you've earned the right to exist. And then once you've gotten over some of that initial barrier to entry, it is important for you to think about these high-level things.

Steve Weiss: I'm lucky man, I have a lot of really good entrepreneur friends, a lot of people who have a lot more experience than me, you being one of them, that I can kind of just bounce ideas off of.

Rob Schutz: Did you just call me a friend? Did that just happen?

Steve Weiss: I think we entered friend zone, buddy.

Rob Schutz: Oh my God. Did we just become best friends?

Steve Weiss: I think we became besties. It happened. It happened over the podcast. But I think ... It all starts there man. I think you've got to have that network of people you trust that you can kind of bounce ideas off of. I've gotten so much value out of just picking the brains of people who invest time with me. Just people who went out of their way to really say, "Steve, I'm going to invest 15, 20 minutes." Because the reality is, I don't have all the solutions and I don't think anyone does.

Steve Weiss: And I think when you come at it from an area of empathy, it's like yeah, some of the stuff you go through, I go through and here's what I did, here's what you did. It's really interesting. And one thought that I had and this is kind of off topic, this has nothing to do with growth marketing. But I was thinking about yesterday, when you have an organization, you probably agree with this that, there's always ... I wouldn't say infighting, but there's always disagreements on stuff. There's always this person wants to do this, this person wants to do that.

Steve Weiss: And I think one thing I've learned this year as a leader is instead of looking ... normally you pick a side. When there's a confrontation, you back one side, right? I think when I became a leader this year, I started thinking about how could I, instead of picking one side, how do I get these two people to work collaboratively together and think of, hey, if you work better with this person, the organization will grow immensely. How do you infuse that non-picking side thing and infuse that, hey, here's the value of working closely with this person. Your job will become easier and you'll be more successful.

Rob Schutz: Totally, totally. Yeah, that becomes your role as a leader, as a senior manager it's like, you can't do all the things and you don't want to put the company in a position where you are actively involved in day-to-day decisions before things can move forward. Your role is to legitimately get those people to find a way to work together or if they can't, figure out a more sustainable path forward. I always ... I look at that as kind of the view of the leadership is, it's really people to give you leverage. It's people to give you and the other leaders on the team leverage and you cannot be involved with day-to-day decisions.

Rob Schutz: You can give input when asked, but it really comes down to hiring those great people, giving them the leeway to be able to make choices, decisions. Give them autonomy to also make some mistakes because if people don't feel empowered and like they can actually make choices that are going to affect the business, you're going to have trouble retaining great people. And so there's a give and take there, but finding a way to remove yourself from having to make those types of calls consistently is very healthy long-term.

Steve Weiss: Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head. Giving people the ability to feel like, okay, it's okay to fail. I always talk about it's okay ... As long as you show up and you hit as hard as you can, it's okay to not ... it's okay to fail. And I think coming back and learning from those lessons is something that I've been really thinking about, how do I communicate that to people?

Rob Schutz: Totally.

Steve Weiss: Cool, man. Before we wrap things up, this has been awesome. I think I've learned a lot just from being on this podcast with you, man. Is there any other messages that you want to ... is there any other messages that you want to tell the listeners? Is there anything that you want to kind of share or is ... I'll let you kind of take the mic here.

Rob Schutz: Well thank you for the mic. I would say ... Let's see, high-level lessons. I don't know, I think ... I don't think anyone really ... I don't know. I get asked a lot people like trying to figure out what the next step is in their career and how to get into entrepreneurial activities and where to start on stuff. I feel like in general, just probably a lot of people with a background in growth and acquisition understand this more, but a lot of times, you just got to do things. You just got to start doing things. And it's going to take some iterations to figure out what more of a forever role or forever job looks like.

Rob Schutz: But I feel like just jumping in and starting stuff, getting involved with the project, volunteering your time with a startup just to learn a new skill set, that's how you actually get into doing something different. Everyone wants to bring someone on board who's at least done something peripherally related to what they're working on. So I'd say for people just looking at how to get involved in some of this, take some classes, become an expert, "expert" in something.

Rob Schutz: Massage your resume so that jobs you're applying to at startups are very aligned with the need that they have. And it's a lot easier to get your foot in the door coming from that approach than kind of just throwing yourself at people and saying like, "I'll do whatever you need." And then it turns into a game of like, what do you want to do? And they say, what do you need? And it's hard to place people that way. So the more specific you can be and the more you can kind of tailor your skill set, the better.

Steve Weiss: Well, you mentioned something interesting, just one quick question because this is ... I have a lot of friends who are kind of in this position as well and I came from this position. How do you go from being a really good marketer or a really good acquisition marketer to being a really good entrepreneur? That's a question I have a lot of friends who are always asking me. It's like, how do I transition? I'm CMO, I'm director of marketing at a great organization. How do I transfer and become a great entrepreneur? Or even just an entrepreneur, how do I go ... How do I take that major step from being the best at this one area of acquisition to actually becoming a great CRO or CMO or CEO of my own organization?

Rob Schutz: Yeah. I mean it's a good question. I think I can give you my take from kind of my personal experience and hopefully that's valuable. I had done growth marketing for a long time, I was at BarkBox for about five years before Ro. And what I found super valuable was actually finding co-founders who have complimentary skills. So I don't think I was in a position where I would have felt comfortable going out and doing something 100% on my own. I was really fortunate to find Zach and Saman who have real superpowers in their own right, but in a very complimentary area.

Rob Schutz: So I felt like I had a really good handle on revenue, growth, content, social. Saman has a great background in branding and product and engineering. Z has ... Zach has immense background in medical regulatory and compliance space and we were just a good fit. We all had strong personalities, but we all had strong unique skills. I think what I've seen happen with growth folks is a lot of times you'll see people do really well. They'll be in senior positions on the growth side and then they'll team up with other growth people because that's who is in their network.

Steve Weiss: That's who they know.

Rob Schutz: Yeah, it's like who you're hanging out with. But I think that there's been a little bit of a disservice. You need a good complement to your existing skills so that you can kind of create this Avengers style team to go out and tackle all these problems you're going to have. And honestly, people with slightly different experiences and different opinions than you can be good too. We spend a lot of time debating stuff and we have our disagreements about how to approach stuff, but we always come out of those with a healthy appreciation of each other's opinion and kind of a unified front.

Rob Schutz: But finding complementary co-founders I think is honestly one of the most important lessons that I've learned so far because you're going to need expertise in a lot of different spaces and needing to hire people early who are very senior can be challenging when they're not at that level. And quite frankly, it also lets you operate pretty quickly. You can jump to idea to operational pretty quickly if you've got someone with growth skills, with tech skills, with subject matter skills and I think it's just pretty critical.

Steve Weiss: Dude, that's a great answer. That's something that ... You hit the nail on the head. And I don't really know how to communicate that. It sounds easy in theory. It's like go find someone who has a different skill set. And you tell your friends that and I'm like ... I have a ... One of my close buddies, he's a C-level guy to one really successful e-commerce brand. And he's always asking me, he's like, he really wants to be an entrepreneur and the dude's like one of the most talented marketers I know.

Steve Weiss: And I always give him the advice, I'm like, "Hey man, just find someone who complements you in something because there's stuff that you're not prepared for." I wasn't prepared for the finance area of this business. I wasn't prepared for the HR, the operational side and logistics, hiring. There's so much stuff that you just ... You're like, "Wow, this is crazy. I had no preparation for this. I had no formal training." And I think finding someone is probably nine-tenths of the game, that really you work closely with and you have a different skill set for that complements you.

Rob Schutz: Totally, totally. And I'm a big fan of co-founding teams with three even more than two, at this point. Just having someone to break the tie has been really helpful in a lot of different things where it's like, we're ready to agree and commit and move on, but having a third voice in the room is always very helpful. We've also found it really helpful where clearly there's tension about something going on and the third person can kind of call it out and make the conversation happen so you can just kind of move on. But yeah, that sounds like you're giving very wise advice to your friends.

Steve Weiss: Cool, man. Well, that's pretty much all the time we have. I don't want to keep you. I know you're a really busy guy, man. So dude, thanks so much for joining the podcast and stay tuned for the next Spend $10k a Day podcast. We have a lot more coming at you before the holiday season. Thanks.

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