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Maintaining onsite focus with JustUno CTO Travis Logan

Travis Logan, CTO and Co-Founder of JustUno, stops by 10K to talk about convenience and site focus. We dive into how brands can serve their customers instead of just mindlessly heaving promotions at them.

Episode Transcript — Maintaining onsite focus with JustUno CTO Travis Logan

Peter Starr N:
From MuteSix Media, this is 10k a Day, a show about the details in scaling your online business. I'm your host, Peter Starr Northrop, bringing you this time a conversation with Travis Logan, CTO and co-founder of Justuno. It's an awesome conversation about all things on-site and we're going to focus on how to turn your website into a concierge that serves your customers as opposed to a blank unreactive slate that shouts marketing slogans at your prospects and customers. It's all about building that LTV by adding context and convenience back into your marketing strategy. Let's jump right into it.

Peter Starr N:
Travis, thanks so much for joining us today, man. How you doing today?

Travis Logan:
I'm doing great and thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Peter Starr N:
Absolutely. Major thing, just I want to get it out of the way. I just want to make sure that we have characterization rolled through here. Just can you very fast just give us your story real quick?

Travis Logan:
Yeah, I can give you the speed dating version, absolutely. So I've been in the e-commerce game for 20 plus years now. I've done everything from own an e-commerce store, brick and mortar, to online, to doing customized e-commerce stores and user communities that are attached to stores for other people throughout the years, to more presently about eight or nine years ago, I actually I have been a part of a SaaS e-commerce software company. It was kind of a boutique one. So then you fast forward a few years and Eric, the CEO of Justuno and the other co-founder, him and I began and started up Justuno.com. The vision of Justuno was that at the time both him and I were coming off of directly being in the e-commerce game, and there was a need to keep people on your site, engage them, give them discount codes, obviously generate emails, opt-ins amongst other things, and the funneling and so forth. So we recognized that and we recognized that early in the game. There were very few people around doing that back then, and it was actually a little hard to sell because people didn't understand why they would want to give a discount code to somebody already on their site, but then you fast-forward to today and everybody understands that, and it's how to improve on that now.

Peter Starr N:
One thing I am curious about is just seeing the genesis of that really fast, because having you being in e-commerce for basically the entire time that e-commerce has been a thing. How have you sort of imagined the way you try to engage users on site? Have users become more distracted? Is bounce rate even worse these days, or is that a wrong way of looking at it since that's kind of the introductory way that a lot of folks sort of begin understanding this on-site engagement game?

Travis Logan:
It's hard to say. I mean, it's definitely evolved, especially with the mobile game part of it. Before the mobile devices like the iPhone, people were doing all their browsing and all their purchasing on their desktops, and in the last five plus years, that has swayed considerably to the mobile side depending on your industry, but it's always interesting to look at mobile users. First it was really just a browsing behavior, a window shopping behavior, whether it's on the bus to on the way to their office or in the bathroom. People are browsing, figuring out what they're going to go buy when they do have a moment at their desktop to pull out their wallet. Obviously these days that's just been going more and more towards the fashion of being able to do a one-click type of checkout right on your mobile device.

Travis Logan:
So as that becomes easier, the buying habits are increasing on mobile devices and probably faster than they are, for sure faster than they are on desktops. I don't know, I can't really speak to conversion rates starting from 20 years ago because I didn't, I built the websites and people didn't have so much eyes on conversion rates back then as they do now. We didn't have the lovely things of Google Analytics and likes available back then, but definitely conversion rates I feel like are, they're a fluctuating thing and you can get it right one year and then the next year it can drop, and that can be because of behavior, it can be because of competitors, new technologies. So it's just a matter of staying up on the game and keeping that, making sure to keep your AOV and your conversion rates up there.

Peter Starr N:
For me, I love hearing that because those are always going to be your key site health indicators. AOV is just the most important in terms of making sure that you're boosting LTV. The best indicator you have for high LTV is high AOV and that really lives and dies on site, and so many marketers get wrong using their website as a marketing tool. So it's a really cool way of just very quickly glancing through the history of how that works and what are the best ways of thinking about using your site as a marketing tool.

Travis Logan:
Yeah, and then another interesting and one that's getting harder and harder, unless you own, unless you are the brand and you are direct-to-consumer only, is the repeat business. People are increasingly less loyal to e-commerce stores, especially if they're selling other people's brands. It's all about the deal, and with these different apps that come out, plugins for your Chrome browser or whatever that can show you while you're on one website looking at a product, that that same product is cheaper on this other website. I mean it's just detrimental to your repeat business. So that's an uphill battle that I feel like most people, like I said, other than brands that are direct-to-consumer only, are fighting and it's, I think that battle is going to get harder and harder.

Peter Starr N:
And even D-to-C brands, a lot of them still have to play the game where even if they're direct-to-consumer, they're still selling Amazon. So you're always going to have-

Travis Logan:
Oh, yeah.

Peter Starr N:
That kind of competitor denial to deal with. So I'm right there with you, and there are a lot of people in the industry who talk a lot about keeping your prospects focused on site. We've heard everything about interstitials, and overlays, and different kinds of behavioral moments and behavioral deployments and all of this, and there's not really a lot of consensus in terms of what you need to be doing in order to use your site as a marketing tool because really it's a brand by brand thing. It's an audience by audience thing. So my major question is what is your general philosophy when you're approaching it? Is it about building as many different segments as possible? Is it about automation? When you're thinking about this, when you're thinking about just the immense complexity that is maintaining focus in this attention economy, how do you, what is your and Justuno sort of philosophy in terms of making sure that folks on-site are staying engaged and not falling into those distraction traps?

Travis Logan:
Yeah, I mean, well traditionally it is trying to segment as well as possible without overdoing it. That depends on the brand, depends on the website, depends on the website visitors, how many campaigns that that might involve. At the very least you got to attack the new visitors, you got to attack the repeat visitors. You want to get them to become a repeat visitor as well. Then, but you can go so down that rabbit hole, which generally speaking is a good thing, and what you certainly never want to do is set it and forget it. I mean, from there there's only so much manpower you can put into segmenting and optimizing, and that's where automated personalization, whether it's product suggestions or it's just straight up content on the site, depending on what your site is about, all of that, with the new technologies that are available today and right around the corner from AI with machine learning, it's making that actually feasible now, and not just to the ginormous brands who have deep pockets.

Travis Logan:
You can get into that as a smaller brand now and actually have an ROI, which is great news for everybody. Well, for the smaller brands at the least. As long as those are executed correctly, that those fill in the gaps of constantly having to optimize and create new segments, new campaigns, and targeting and such. So that's why we're really excited. At Justuno, we're doubling down in that area of AI and machine learning, both for personalized content but also to target your website visitors at the appropriate time, not just what you're showing them.

Peter Starr N:
No, exactly. Timing is absolutely one of the most critical elements in terms of locking in that targeting, but what really makes this exciting for the entire industry is finally we're at a point where we have the data sets necessary to even actually have the machine learning conversation. Everyone's been talking about machine learning and AI for a long time, but 2019 is really the year where data science is catching up to the point where we can actually finally feasibly do it. So I am curious if you're able to talk to anything at all about how you think about sort of structuring your machine learning processes, how you're approaching your algorithms and your data science, and how you're sort of training Justuno to make sure that the right product is being recommended to the right person at the right time across all your different customers, because that sounds like just a delicious problem to solve.

Travis Logan:
It is. It's interesting and very fun. There's obviously a 100 ways to skin that cat, plus probably. It's about the right combination and look, I mean, we're learning still. To date, we've created a few billion different unique user profiles that we've tracked and have at our disposal, which a part of those profiles are of course where they came from, how long they spend on the site, what pages they saw, what links did they click on, when did they leave the funnel, all that kind of stuff. So we have all that data at our disposal, but another part that you have to be very careful about is that you don't want to just go across all your data. You want to go across the data that makes sense for the individual website visitor on an individual website, and not even just that. I mean, you want to break it down into holiday periods. You want to break it down into sale periods, knowing when a website is on sale, that is another data point.

Travis Logan:
So I think that's where some companies go wrong, at least from what I gather from their marketing, where they say that they're leveraging their entire customer base with machine learning to figure out when and where to show something, or maybe they're getting a little bit more granular hopefully because you have to take into account both parts and use the appropriate pieces of all your data for the appropriate moments.

Peter Starr N:
Which is why AI becomes the most important thing. Just the variables compound on each other so incredibly, and I don't want to bog down. I would love to talk about data science for this entire recording, but I understand our audience is like, "But then how do I actually use this?"

Travis Logan:
Right.

Peter Starr N:
So that kind of brings me into as we think about, obviously you need machine learning, you need AI, you need this level of automation. You need to train these algorithms to find these right moments, to deliver the right kinds of value props, but when we're thinking about driving value, while our website needs to be the hub around which all of our marketing revolves, how do you think about guiding distracted customers to all of your available channels? What are some of your conversion goals? Is is email still the end-all and be-all? Are we just living and dying via the inbox, or are there other kinds of placements we can be thinking about as we are trying to get that value exchange going for these on-site moments?

Travis Logan:
Yeah, I mean email is still out there, but things like of course messenger are quickly catching up, that it's an exciting technology. It's finding out, it's SMS on an app, but it's as it gains more traction and it goes across different types of messenger channels. Everybody thinks of Facebook Messenger today, but there's so many different key social sites and even other types of components that people use on a daily basis that are all going to get into that, and then it's going to be the apps and the companies that leverage that unify all those into one messaging platform for the e-commerce, for the merchant. That's I think where the bread and butter is really going to happen when it comes to messaging. There's those. Web push notifications are I think are very powerful. I think websites are utilizing them very incorrectly today. You rarely see a website with push notifications that doesn't hit you the first second you hit a website, which is mind-boggling to me to try and whack somebody in the face the second they land on your site with something like that.

Travis Logan:
Justuno, have something in beta right now for push notifications, but it utilizes our pop-ups in our segments so that you can wait till the appropriate point in the funnel to ask to show them a promo, to ask them to subscribe to your web push notifications. So we're still kind of gathering data around that and seeing how effective and how to obviously better it, but we do feel like that's the next evolution of the the push notifications.

Travis Logan:
So to answer your question, yeah, I mean email, from a data standpoint, email is still the number one, but we see these other channels all increasing, and again, like most other things, it's about hitting all the channels, not choosing one and embracing it only.

Peter Starr N:
Not only is it, you're just getting an entrance sort of like, "Hey, sign up for push notifications from us." But it's also the awful Chrome just hey, they want to send you notifications with no context. For me that's the major reason why brands aren't even rethinking about push because they are not doing anything to contextualize the experience. So I love that you're using all of the strong data behind, Justuno interstitials and Justuno overlays to get people to actually have a chance of opting into push notifications.

Travis Logan:
Exactly.

Peter Starr N:
That's awesome. When you're thinking about that as well, one problem we see a lot from our audience is that all of their value is going to come from those high LTV customers, and thinking about all the different channels you can get people to opt in on when you're thinking about if you have somebody opted in to email, to messenger, and to push notifications that presents its own kind of issue because it's now, well I have three high intent channels. What am I, where am I, how I even going to engage with these people now, how do I? That's even more variables. So when you're thinking about that in those data sets, are there any ways you can, you help your clients and your customers or even just your product in general, think about which campaigns go to which channel?

Travis Logan:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean you got to be careful with any things that are going to interrupt somebody during work hours or something like that, and obviously that being more so the messenger, and the SMS, and the push. I think you're totally safe at the very least using all that from a transactional standpoint. So let them know any updates about an order, letting them know, asking them maybe for a review later and things like that. Beyond that, of course you want to market to them through those channels, but you have to be a lot more careful, and a lot of that can be solved from the get-go in making sure that they're opting in to a certain list or segment, the correct certain list or segment in the first place when they're opting in to your SMS or your push, so that they're, when you do push a marketing email, it's more personalized, or sorry, a marketing push notification, or SMS or messenger message, it's a lot more personalized to them. So again, if you're interrupting them, at least you're interrupting them with something that theoretically is engaging to them. But on the email side, obviously you want to use those same ideas on the email, but you don't have to be so careful.

Peter Starr N:
The main game there when you're thinking about it is ensuring that you're setting up that value proposition, which is something that I don't want to become too much of a Justuno sales guy, but given all the different ways that you contextualize and set up these interstitials, there are a lot of really awesome ways that you make sure that every time somebody is being, air quotes, interrupted, it's you understand what the value proposition is. It's at a critical moment where you could get crossed, get a cross-sell or if you're on exit, just one last opportunity to get that offer or even in more lower funnel situations, like that upsell situation, and I love having all of those at your disposal, and having AI behind the decision-making because it's either that or you have just a bunch of really, really sad product folks just segmenting your site to death. As you know, and with the way the audience is shifting and the way that society itself shifts so quickly, you have about 18 months at a time for each sort of moment in the zeitgeists before you have to completely adapt your strategy. So I'm loving this direction that we're going in in terms of making it AI based and making sure that it's as multi or omni-channel as possible depending on which buzz word you want to use for it on a given day.

Travis Logan:
Right, right. Yeah, exactly. The other thing too, I purposely left out but I kind of changed my mind, is the abandoned cart situation, and not just abandoned cart, and this is where the AI and the machine learning and everything comes into play. You can do this across the messenger, the push, and the SMS, but again, you have to be very smart about it and smart being really just AI driven. Sending, hey, the item you looked at that you added is, you wouldn't say this, but the AI might look at it like, an item you looked at that was out of stock or didn't have the size, you didn't add it to your cart. You ended up adding a different related item to your cart but didn't check out. Yeah.

Travis Logan:
The basic engines out there today would send you the one you added to your cart but didn't check out with, but the smart ones would send you the one that you looked at that was related and that didn't have the size that you ultimately added of the next one that you didn't check out with. So those are the fun things, and that's what I'm saying. We're trying to do this, do this right. We've seen it done wrong a lot. It's also because technology is really catching up and those are the type of capabilities that I want to see more. We're certainly diving into it from Justuno's standpoint, but as a consumer I'd like to see it more as well.

Peter Starr N:
And that's one of the things that's always made me super sad about cart abandonment because we've always, since it's so powerful, we always talk about it in such simple terms and therefore we don't give it the room and the opportunity to be as powerful as it can be, because the major goal you have when you are trying to use your site as a marketing tool is reminding yourself that you are trying to be a concierge for your customer, not sort of like a stalker of, or an assaulter of them. What I love about that is that it's all about that service. It's taking all of those variables and seeing what your customers would actually want based off of them, rather than being like, "Well, you looked at this and you added it to cart, but then you didn't buy it, so just buy it now, please." Obviously.

Travis Logan:
Right.

Peter Starr N:
So that's gigantic. That's really thinking in a way that you're actually trying to serve your consumers. The fact that you can do that in so many different channels now making make a abandoned cart cadence in messenger that's more of a conversation. Hey, you left this. Would you actually want, X, Y or Z? Not trying to put products in Justuno's mouth or anything, but I love the direction we're going in because it's one of those things that you have to give your website as many options as possible to serve your customers and really get them what they want as opposed to what you think they want. So for me that is gigantic.

Peter Starr N:
I guess one thing that before we sort of begin paring this down is one thing our audience is always curious about is places where in you can sort of build friction between your channels. Obviously you have to start with your website and move out from there, but when you're thinking about just making sure you've got that multichannel unity. I don't think anybody is really going to solve the omni-channel, one person goes to multiple devices situation anytime soon. My question is how, with that in mind, how do you make sure that all of these channels are kind of working in unison when you have potentially a bunch of people on a bunch of separate lists on different channels as you're making sure you're reengaging folks and getting them back to your site at the appropriate time via the appropriate channel?

Travis Logan:
Yeah, I mean, it is choosing the correct technology and the correct partners. It's funny you mentioned, it's actually going to get harder before it gets easier to track people efficiently and correctly across devices. With all the privacy advocate stuff happening, in Apple they long since have jumped on really, really anonymizing their iPhone and their Safari browsers. So it's definitely getting harder and harder to do that, and at some point somebody will figure it out or something will happen and it'll be night and day difference. But I do agree with you that we're probably a ways away from that. So as I kind of started with my response, choosing the right partners and technology. When you are starting out, you get your website, the first thing you do is figure out, well what, if we're talking about e-commerce, you're like, "All right, well what e-commerce platform am I going to use?" I mean, the business side of things that from your website standpoint, that's the first thing you really have to figure out.

Travis Logan:
So you choose, hopefully you choose an e-commerce platform that has a great ecosystem of partners that can easily integrate into it. But you're looking at feature sets, who knows what features that you might be looking for, but you're looking for all those feature sets that you need now and what you might need in the future. The next thing you do is you, generally speaking, is you look for an ESP. So when you're looking at your ESPs, what's a hard requirement? Easy, your ESP has to work with your shopping cart, your e-commerce platform. So you get that ESP. What's the next thing you look for, right? So you just keep going down that funnel and what's consistent, or hopefully you keep consistent, is that each thing has to work with hopefully everything or most everything you already have established. When you break that chain, that one break can cause such a headache on so many levels and that headache can go all the way down to a disconnect from messaging standpoint to your website visitors.

Peter Starr N:
And that's the major way that we begin to solve this problem. As you are looking through all this data and as Justuno gets even more powerful day by day, as you get more and more data, and more and more impressions, and more and more sort of successful micro conversions and those micro moments that flow through your product on a minute by minute basis. How do you help your, the clients you work with, the brands you work with? How do you help them think about which moment requires which kind of opt-in? Is there a specific moment where someone's abandoning from a product page and you know this is the best time for messenger, or is this something that should just happened on a brand by brand basis? There's some brands who just work better for messenger, there's some brands who live and die via email the best, or there are just some kinds of products that are just perfect for web push and that those kinds of opt-ins. When you're thinking about that kind of segmentation, what kind of data are you looking at?

Travis Logan:
Yeah, I mean yeah, you mentioned abandoned cart or abandoning a website. Typically asking them to opt in to anything is a no-no at that point, unless you give them a very compelling reason to. But what we found is that's one of the opportunities where you just say, "Hey, hold on, wait. This is the reason to stay with us on this particular, this web session." So whether that's a discount code, or something else, maybe a free product with your today's purchase. It could be numerous things, but an example of asking somebody to opt in to something that's I think more, it's at least better served from a transactional messaging standpoint like messenger or SMS would be is they add something to their cart at some point thereafter, fairly quickly you say, "Hey, would you like to get notifications with price alerts?" Or things like that. But you have to be careful.

Travis Logan:
It's interesting, I still see it happen all the time today. People will give a lottery or they'll have a promo that says, "Enter for a chance to win a gift card." It's baffling to me that people still do this because you're literally telling your customer, "Give us your email." Which is good, or any of the other channels, "But don't purchase anything today." Wait to see if you possibly one in a 1,000 or one in a 100,000 chance get a gift card to then hopefully use that gift card and buy, make your purchase at a discount. So I mean, you explain it to everybody and it's a no-brainer, but it just, people don't think of that when they're like, "Oh well, a gift card is an easy, people are always happy on a gift card and we only have to give, we can get a 1,000 email addresses and give out one $100 gift card. It's great." You just deterred a thousand people plus from buying in that channel in that session, and in today's Internet that that session is gold.

Peter Starr N:
That's wild to me that that's still happening. A real quick question just to sort of piggyback on that. Is there such thing as a contest at all that is effective these days or should we just be sticking to discount codes and sort of more behavioral value props?

Travis Logan:
No, we find a contest to actually be pretty effective still, especially at generating, because obviously not going the gift card route, but there's plenty of other routes where you can get them to sign up via a specific channel as well. Maybe you've already got their email address and hopefully you're using a product like Justuno that knows that you've already got their email address, whether it came through Justuno or through one of the ESPs that are integrated with Justuno, and then because of that, it tries to get you to opt in to one of the other channels. Well, depending on that audience group that they're in, the best way to get them to opt in might be just by offering them a contest related type of promo.

Peter Starr N:
That makes a lot of sense because it's a matter of figuring out the right value prop for the right time, which again is always going to take just so much data, which is why I've really loved having you on the program, so our audience can really begin thinking about just how they need to begin examining just the massive amount of data that they already have on their website. I love the bias that we have since this is a podcast hosted by a Facebook agency. I keep focusing on, yeah, retargeting, bring them back to the website, when the real goal is keep them on the website in the first place. You don't have to buy their traffic again. So I appreciate you keeping me honest there, man.

Travis Logan:
Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, that's the first goal. It's not the real goal, it's the first goal. The second goal is getting them back afterwards to repurchase, and if that happens from a retargeting ad or not, that is definitely the next goal.

Peter Starr N:
You have to always prioritize and put your goals in order. Then we begin thinking about that, so I'm loving this present, I'm loving just this really all these doors that are opening when it comes to on-site engagement and making sure that our website is a tool that actually serves our customers and helps us make money as opposed to us just continually giving away all of our margins to all these different channels. When you're thinking about the future and as you are, every minute you're getting more and more data, and every minute you're refining what is ultimately an awesome product. What is on the horizon for you? I'm not asking for you to do any product announcements here. What are some of the things that are really excited you in terms of figuring out questions to answers in terms of how to keep people engaged on-site?

Travis Logan:
It's funny, just you just said questions to answers, and earlier in this conversation you mentioned the concierge. So whatever you can do, and this is, believe me, Justuno is looking into this. We have a few ideas already on on the table. Whatever you can do to recreate a virtual concierge that is smart enough to call itself a concierge, one that you want to use and doesn't just distract you for no reason. I think that is a great future product to be had. Something that can come up at the right time, the right place on your website, tell you, "Hey, this is so-and-so, your virtual concierge." If it's that direct or not, but it can then ask you a few questions, not a lot of questions. It could, maybe it gives you three options. It's tell me a little bit about yourself, your preferred colors, your preferred sizes, things like that, so I can better serve you, or tell me to go kick rocks. You go down either path, hopefully you want to hear more information and give them a little more information. You're going to get much better personalized product suggestions, ads, different things like that to, right in that session, and also off-site, whether it's any of those channels we've been talking about.

Travis Logan:
So that's something big I foresee both from Justuno, I wouldn't be surprised if other people really fine-tune and jump in, or jump in and then fine-tune on that as well. Beyond that, everybody is personalizing promos these days. Of course everybody is trying to do it better than the next, but another part is taking, really just getting good at taking the guesswork out of when to show this promotion, whether it's a carousel of products, or it's an email opt-in or any of those other channel opt-in type promotions.

Travis Logan:
Nobody is ever going to work as good as an AI that's being driven off a ton of machine learned data. It's that that is where it's going to make a dramatic difference in when to show those promos to the person. A great example is, and some people are doing this already and so is Justuno, but it's got a lot of room improvement across the board is being able to target people on a mobile device when they're going to leave a website. On desktop it's easy, amongst other points that you certainly combine, usually one of the main things to look for is that mouse rolling out the top of the screen. Everybody's doing that. Everybody's been doing that for a while, but on a mobile device you don't have that opportunity. There are some things people are trying, I think personally they're all mediocre, but when you combine AI with data, you can know, you'll get, the system will know, AI will know when somebody is going to leave a website at the time that person starts thinking about leaving the website. That's how it should work theoretically with enough data and a smart enough AI. So there's a lot of opportunity to target somebody at the appropriate time, and that will make a dramatic difference on on AOV, LTV, everything.

Peter Starr N:
Exactly, because mobile, as we just become this more and more mobile first web, it's one of those things where you had, the mouse motion is great, and sort of those up scrolls you can kind of use.

Travis Logan:
Yeah, the flick test, all that kind of stuff.

Peter Starr N:
Yeah, but what I love is once you have enough data you can really get down to that deterministic moment where it's the best possible guess at the best possible time. So that's what's just really exciting about all of this. We're really at this moment where we actually have enough data to really blow up the AI side of on-site optimization.

Travis Logan:
Exactly.

Peter Starr N:
So just really excited to roll into this more service-based future where websites really become this point of service as opposed to just a blank screen you engage with. Either way though, Travis Logan, CTO and co-founder of Justuno.com. It's been awesome having you on. I don't want to take up too much of your day. Before we go though, any final thoughts from you? Anything that you felt like we should've covered? Again, it has been such a delight having you on the program.

Travis Logan:
And likewise. No, I mean, I think we did a great job covering a lot and definitely I share your excitement with where the industry is today, and the technology is today, and Justuno is just going to try and be a forefront leader in it. So definitely we'll keep you posted and hopefully we can do this again sometime soon.

Peter Starr N:
And once again, a huge thank you to Travis Logan, CTO and co-founder of Justuno for joining us in the program today. If you liked this interview, ladies and gentlemen, a slightly longer one than we're usually used to, I know, but I appreciate you sticking it out to the end. Feel free to subscribe to 10k a Day wherever you find fine podcasts. Find us in Apple, Stitcher, wherever fine podcasts are sold. You can also hit us up over at MuteSix.com/10kaday. Either way, ladies and gentlemen, just so you know, this podcast was produced, hosted, and voiced by me, Peter Starr Northrop. Our executive producer is Sura Hart, and we had associate production this week from Jenna Ochoa on the Justuno side. As always, our editor in chief is Steve Weiss. Audience, thank you so much for your time and as always, we love to leave you with peace, love, and ROI. Everyone be well. Thank you so much.

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